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That and Which--AGAIN!

Krohe
(I have written on this subject before, but because my LJ won't let me browse my archives without booting me out, you'll have to take my word for it.)

That and which--a challenge to writers everywhere. Reading submissions these last two months has really driven the fact home for me. I have only read TWO submissions this entire two month submission period that were not that/which challenged. So, after a long absence from these pages, I give you:
THE BOGWITCHY GUIDE TO THAT AND WHICH

THAT is a restrictive clause, part of a sentence you can't get rid of without changing the meaning, because it RESTRICTS some other part of the sentence. For example:

Mice that don't like cheese will never fit in with mouse society.

It doesn't matter whether or not this statement is true; what does matter is the THAT DON'T LIKE CHEESE cannot be taken out of the sentence without losing all meaning. It's a restrictive clause. Without that clause, the sentence says that no mice will ever fit into mouse society. WITH the clause, it's only those unfavorably disposed to cheese that won't.

WHICH is a non-restrictive clause, part of a sentence that can be left out (not which can be left out!) without changing the meaning. Non-restrictive clauses require a comma, or commas. It's an easy indicator. Restrictive clauses don't usually require commas.

The building, which stood on the corner of 1st and Grandview, was demolished in the Great Mouse Rebellion.

WHICH STOOD ON THE CORNER OF 1ST AND GRANDVIEW is the non-restrictive clause. It is an added bit of information that can be removed without actually changing the meaning of the sentence. And there is your biggest clue--if you can take out the clause without changing the general meaning of the sentence, use which.

The above is an example of a non-restrictive clause plonked down in the middle of a sentence. The ones tagged on to the end get a little trickier.

The building was demolished in the Great Mouse Rebellion, which was not a happy event for anyone.

With the comma + which, the above sentence says that the building was destroyed, and that its destruction was not a happy event for anyone.

Take out the comma in the above example, and now you need THAT:

The building was demolished in the Great Mouse Rebellion that was not a happy event for anyone.

--and the meaning of the sentence changes. It says that the Great Mouse Rebellion was the unhappy event.

See the difference?

The most insidious that/which challenge I have seen so often used lately is a misguided comma followed by an equally misguided WHICH.

They sat on the swing near the fountain, which stood surrounded by tall trees, like a miniature forest in the city center.

Why is WHICH wrong in this sentence? There are commas! But if you take out that clause, the sentence says that the swing near the fountain was like a miniature forest in the city center, not the tall trees. The sentence doesn't make sense. The sentence can indeed be rearranged to make that clause non-restrictive:

They sat on the swing near the fountain, which stood surrounded by tall trees like a miniature forest in the city center.

Or it could be written as a restrictive clause:
They sat on the swing near the fountain that stood surrounded by tall trees like a miniature forest in the city center.

Meh--I don't like either sentence. Each one gives a slightly different meaning, but clear enough and close enough to evoke the same image. Each is grammatically correct, but wordy. And that brings me to my last point--that and which tend to be filler words. I don't like filler words. They're the ones I end up delete-delete-deleting when I edit. They're words we lean on when connecting thought to image, image to thought. Even when used correctly, paragraph after paragraph of that and which bog a story down.

Like adverbs, I prefer to use that and which (especially which--it always sounds awkward to my inner-ear)sparingly. They're necessary. They're beneficial. They can do the job when called for; just be aware of how often you do the calling.

Comments

( 26 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]anabelgonzalez wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2011 03:53 am (UTC)
Thank you! It will be very helpful for me to remind it!
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 01:32 am (UTC)
Glad to be of service!
[info]jongibbs wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2011 08:20 pm (UTC)
Useful stuff. I use 'that' more often than I should.

Thanks for sharing, Terri :)
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 01:32 am (UTC)
You're welcome, sir! And thanks.
[info]mongrelheart wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2011 10:53 pm (UTC)
Thanks for a great post, Terri-Lynne! I've always been confuzzled about 'that' & 'which', but this really helps.

Although... are you sure we can't just say "Mouses wot doesn't like cheese will never..." ? ;)
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 01:33 am (UTC)
You're welcome! Glad you found it helpful.

I like your way bestest wot, wot!
[info]tracy_d74 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 12:45 am (UTC)
YAY! You were able to post! Let's see if I can actually get a comment to post. It's good to know the rule I have in mind is correct. YAY! Great lesson.
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 01:31 am (UTC)
Looks like I'm one of the few able to post. LJ has been soooo quiet! I can't always get on, and I haven't been able to comment much either. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I'm not even sure this is going to go through!

But yay! Glad you liked it!
[info]peadarog wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 12:28 pm (UTC)
Very helpful post, BW! Merci bien :)
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 02:04 pm (UTC)
De rien, mon ami!
[info]pingback_bot wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 03:27 pm (UTC)
Interesting posts about writing – w/e July 29th 2011
User [info]jongibbs referenced to your post from Interesting posts about writing – w/e July 29th 2011 saying: [...] (Victoria Strauss) That and Which [...]
[info]msstacy13 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 03:40 pm (UTC)
This is another one of those arbitrary rules
that/which really just pisses me off.
Oh, no offense to you.

The building was demolished in the Great Mouse Rebellion,
which was not a happy event for anyone.


We have two antecedents there,
and my inclination is to assume that immediacy is meaningful;
that is, I see the nearest antecedent as the one being referenced,
regardless of any explanation of how "which" ought to be used,
and what is to be inferred from that proper use.

I'm a firm believer in avoiding structural ambiguity.
The building's demolition, not a happy event for anyone,
occurred during the Great Mouse Rebellion.

There can be no misunderstanding of that.

People were explaining this rule before either of us were born;
if it still requires explanation, it's a crappy rule
and ought to be abandoned.
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 04:42 pm (UTC)
Grammar rules are there to clarify things. Writing it as YOU have written it is, of course, much more concise; but as long as that and which are still in the vocabulary, they have to be used correctly or forever confound us.
[info]clarionj wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 03:50 pm (UTC)
Thanks for clearly showing that commas are important, and rules of usage actually make sense. I read so many confusing sentences that authors justify by saying, oh, I like to be more playful with commas, or I just put them where they feel right. But those writers KNOW what they're saying. Conventions help the rest of us get the right meaning!
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 05:00 pm (UTC)
Ugh!! NO BEING PLAYFUL WITH COMMAS!!! They are, by far, the most important tool we have in our writerly toolboxes. If the meaning needs to be clear, use punctuation appropriately. The only place I can see "playful" commas would be in poetry, when you want to give it different interpretations.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 03:55 pm (UTC)
I love this! Sorry, I'm one who hasn't been able to log on until today.

BTW...what do you have against mice? :P

Tweeting this!
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 04:43 pm (UTC)
Yay! I'm being Tweeted! Who is this, anyway?? And thanks!
[info]msstacy13 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 04:00 pm (UTC)
As long as I'm ranting,
(I've got a fire in my belly, as you may have heard)

Mice that don't like cheese will never fit in with mouse society.

Wouldn't it be better to say
Those mice who don't like cheese will never fit in with mouse society.
?

They sat on the swing near the fountain, which stood surrounded by tall trees like a miniature forest in the city center.

Would work much better as
They sat on the swing, near the fountain, surrounded by tall trees, like a miniature forest in the city center.
because the structure itself minimizes the potential for ambiguity.
One would have to be an inveterate grammarian
to argue that anyone would infer that
They were sitting like a miniature forest,
or that either the swing or the fountain
resembled a forest in some mystical way.

Anyway, it's not you I'm mad at, really;
you're just an innocent pawn of the verbal oppressors
who used rules like this to justify demeaning
the pragmatic speakers of a less erudite English.
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 04:46 pm (UTC)
This all brings into focus the last part of my thoughts on that/which--such sentences can almost ALWAYS be written better, clearer, tighter. The fact is, we still have these words and their grammar rules. If you're GOING to use them, you have to use them correctly. ALWAYS go for the tighter, righter, wording, as your examples are.

If you're advocating the eradication of WHICH in this usage, I'm behind that! I seriously find it jarring and/or wordy/telly whenever I come across it.
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2011 01:40 pm (UTC)
Oh, and btw--forgot to add this in yesterday! WHO (in your first example) is reserved for people in most cases. Otherwise, it's THAT.

And this is one of those rules that can and should be bent for fictional purposes. If my main character is a talking cat named Snowy, I'd use who. If my main character was a dragon, I'd use who. If my main character was an Ent, I'd use who.

To me, a sentient character gets a who, no matter if it's human, cat, or wood.
[info]lorrainemt wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 04:39 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this clear explanation. I'm not sure if I use them correctly or not, but I do know that using which makes me itchy and I generally avoid it. And that? I always overuse. It's one of those words I highlight at the end of a draft and delete most of them!
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 05:05 pm (UTC)
Yes--I don't like which at ALL. It's always telly, unless it's in dialog. In which, from which, any-preposition+which is fine, but the non-restrictive clause thing?? Yeah--don't like it.

Glad you found this helpful!
[info]mary_j_59 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 08:26 pm (UTC)
Hi - I clicked here from Jon's blog, and this is a great explanation! I actually did not know this, (though I think my grasp of grammar is generally fairly good), and I'm quite grateful. I tweeted this!
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 29th, 2011 09:53 pm (UTC)
Glad to be of service! And thanks for the Tweet. :)
[info]rowyn wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2011 01:28 pm (UTC)
Woo! Thanks for the explanation. :)
[info]bogwitch64 wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2011 01:29 pm (UTC)
You're very welcome! Thanks for stopping by. :)
( 26 comments — Leave a comment )